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How NOT to take a hydraulic oil bath

UserPost

May 2, 2012


Little_Grizzly

Lifetime Member Expert

posts 205

Anyone know a way to remove the circled thingy without taking a bath in hydraulic oil?  I was told, "that's on the suction side.  Just a few drops."  roflmao

May 2, 2012


biggerten

Lifetime Member

posts 37

Post edited 10:25 pm – May 2, 2012 by biggerten


Uh, when I changed my hydraulic fluid, I disconnected there and let it drain into a bucket, so yeah, there might be a few drops……….

 

Maybe you can pack dry ice around the hose and 'freeze' the fluid, creating a temporary plug? I can't say I've tried it, it's just an idea, and might not work at all.

May 3, 2012


Affordable

Supporting Dealer

posts 420

Post edited 5:36 am – May 3, 2012 by Affordable


Take the hose off ahead of it put the hose in a bucket, then take the fitting off.You will loose  a "little hydraulic oil"

 

Tommy

Affordable Tractor Sales

"Your Jinma Parts Superstore"

http://www.affodabletractorsalesco.com

May 3, 2012


Bob Rooks

Member

posts 1408

Unless you have previously drained the reservoir, you stand to lose a lot of oil unless you plug the hose end. This is the pump suction side and it is ~3/4" ID unrestricted all the way back.

What exactly are you trying to do?

May 3, 2012


Little_Grizzly

Lifetime Member Expert

posts 205

Trying to fix a leak.  Oil is dripping (about one drip every 30 min) from that flange.  I'm betting the o-ring underneath is toast.

My plan is to disconnect the hose like Tommy suggested but then see if I can raise it up above the level of the reservoir and tie it there.

That particular hose goes to the end of the valve block.  I assume there is another hose from there to the reservoir?  I will look when I get home.

May 3, 2012


Carl Darnell

Lifetime Member Expert

posts 120

Doesn't your reservoir have a drain plug?

May 3, 2012


Bob Rooks

Member

posts 1408

My bad.

If that hose goes to the valve stack then it's the pressure side hose, so you won't get much oil from it (just whats in the hose) unless you move a valve lever. the suction line must be on the other side of the pump.

 

TOMMY WAS RIGHT AGAIN!  hailking

May 3, 2012


Little_Grizzly

Lifetime Member Expert

posts 205

Doesn't your reservoir have a drain plug?

I guess that's one question I have.  Is it "standard procedure" that every time you work on anything hydraulic you have to drain the tank?

My next issue after this one is to swap the lines going to the tilt cylinder.  Should I just drain the system and do all this at once?  Was kinda hoping it didn't work that way.

May 6, 2012


Little_Grizzly

Lifetime Member Expert

posts 205

Post edited 1:36 pm – May 6, 2012 by Little_Grizzly


Well I removed the line and got a pretty steady flow of oil out of it.  Seemed like it was going to run forever so I succeeded to raise it high enough to stop the flow.  Maybe it was siphoning the tank empty I don't know.  Anyway, what I found when I removed the flange was more disconcerting.  Can't really take a picture this time though.

What I found was two very stiff o-rings.  Not a big deal there. But I also found a few metal shavings.  They are attracted by a magnet so I'm guessing steel.  It wasn't a lot of shavings maybe three or four about maybe 0.5mm long..probably smaller.  My feeling is they shouldn't be there at all.

My next thought is to pull the filter and see what I can see there.

Any experts have ideas?

May 7, 2012


Bob Rooks

Member

posts 1408

Grizz wrote:

"I guess that's one question I have.  Is it "standard procedure" that every time you work on anything hydraulic you have to drain the tank?"

No, absolutely not, especially if what you are working on is higher than the reservoir or downstream of the valve stack, like changing cylinders that are not under a load, etc. You might get whats in the hose though.

My next issue after this one is to swap the lines going to the tilt cylinder.  Should I just drain the system and do all this at once?  Was kinda hoping it didn't work that way.

Swapping tilt cylinder lines shouldn't be a problem at all, I'd do it right at the cylinder.

What I found was two very stiff o-rings.  Not a big deal there. But I also found a few metal shavings.  They are attracted by a magnet so I'm guessing steel.  It wasn't a lot of shavings maybe three or four about maybe 0.5mm long..probably smaller.  My feeling is they shouldn't be there at all.

First off, the O-rings shouldn't be stiff, and there shouldn't be two of them in the same cavity. My guess is that you need a larger O-ring. Secondly, I agree with your thoughts. Metal shavings of any kind are bad ju-ju. I'm thinking you should drain the reservoir, drag it with a magnet, and inspect the suction screen. If that is the pressure side hose that leads to the valve stack then the shavings have already passed through the pump and were headed to the valves. This is why there are pressure side filters – to protect the valves. Not really necessary here though.

May 7, 2012


Little_Grizzly

Lifetime Member Expert

posts 205

Just to clarify, when I said the stiff o-rings is no big deal, I meant to say it is no big deal to fix.  Also to clarify, there are two o-rings on that assembly.  One is on the face of the pump and one is on the hose fitting.  I didn't mean to imply there were two o-rings at the same interface.

Draining the reservoir isn't a problem since I did it by accident. After removing the flange in question there was a slow drip coming out of the pump.  Over night it drained the reservoir.  I will remove the screen in the fill hole and see if I can drag a magnet down in the bottom of the tank.  I bet there is a suction screen behind that big banjo-fitting at the bottom?  I will remove that too and inspect it.

Are there any likely places to look for where the shavings might be coming from?  TPH lift? Pump? Valves? Any of the cylinders?

June 17, 2012


Little_Grizzly

Lifetime Member Expert

posts 205

Post edited 4:44 pm – June 17, 2012 by Little_Grizzly


Well I finally got a little time to work on the dozer courtesy of Father's Day. cool  I got the leak fixed by measuring the o-ring grooves and buying the proper sized o-rings (according to the Parker o-ring catalog).  I also had to remove the paint from the o-ring groove and flange surface!  Yeah…paint IN the o-ring groove???

Here is what I found when I drained the tank looking for the source of metal particles:

 

Mostly a mixture of sand, dirt, and metal. vomit

I poured in some cheap-o ISO46 oil I bought from TSC and ran the hydraulics for a few minutes.  Assuming 8gpm pump I think I cycled the entire tank 5 times.  Now I'm going to drain it and replace the filter.  Then refill with "good" oil and run it for 10 hours or so then replace the filter one more time.  That should do it. (?)

 

Happy Father's Day to all the fathers out there. 

June 17, 2012


Carl Darnell

Lifetime Member Expert

posts 120

Happy fathers day to you too.

 

Did you check the pickup filter screen? you said you found metal shavings in the suction side line of the hydl pump and you found sand, dirt and metal in the reservoir. If the pickup filter screen is working there should be nothing but oil going through the pump. Any metal shavings that came from a pump failure or anywhere after the pump would end up in the reservoir and should NOT be able to get through the pickup screen IF it is doing it's job.

 

Circulating the oil did not clean the reservoir out if the pickup screen is working. If it is bad all you did was to circulate the dirty oil through the system. You probably need to pull the cover off the reservoir and clean it out by hand. 

June 17, 2012


Little_Grizzly

Lifetime Member Expert

posts 205

Post edited 9:56 pm – June 17, 2012 by Little_Grizzly


I guess I didn't say it explicitly but the photo I posted is what I filtered after draining / cleaning the reservoir.  Boy did that take a long time.  I had to improvise a scraper and brush to get all the debris and crud out of the tank.  I washed the tank with kerosene and ran a bit of oil through it to pick up what little kerosene I couldn't get with a rag and evaporation.

About the metal at the pump. Yeah.  I'm pretty clear that there really should not be anything there.  That's why I ran the system for a bit with the cheap oil and old return-line filter.  I'm hoping it was just some metal from the manufacturing process.  A bit of burying my head in the sand but if I could tell you the whole saga of this dozer I think you would be with me and just try to be a bit hopeful at the moment.

The suction filter looked like this:

 

It looks pretty brand new and I couldn't find any obvious holes.

June 18, 2012


Carl Darnell

Lifetime Member Expert

posts 120

It's really unfortunate we lost all the updates we did in the past. In the early years of these tractors we did a lot of experimenting and upgrading. I think that it would be wise for anyone with problems to contact Ron at Ranch Hand Supply because he has documented a lot of the issues and is willing to help.

 

There was a thread that described the way to put a fine mesh pickup screen purchased from Northern Tool and other places to replace the crappy screen supplied by the Chinese.

 

I just went through a hyd. pump failure and he had a lot of info that helped me through the problem. From your last post I assume you got all the trash out of the reservoir and that's good. Time will tell if your pump has been damaged.  

June 18, 2012


Little_Grizzly

Lifetime Member Expert

posts 205

I will just have to keep an eye on things when I finally get to put the blade in the dirt and DO something with this thing.

By the way, I notice there is a 1 or 2 second delay between contact with the ground and lifting the front end of the dozer.  Once it starts to move it quickly lifts the dozer but there is a noticeable delay before it does.  I have no comparison so I don't know if that's normal. Otherwise the hydraulics seem responsive albeit slow.

June 18, 2012


RichWaugh

Lifetime Member Platinum Elite

posts 517

It just needs that little pause to get it's wind back and pump up the hoses, Grizz!  I do the same thing whenever I have to lift a 'dozer – or even a bag of groceries.  roflmao

Is there an accumulator in the line somewhere that may need time to fill?  That could be it.  Or it could just be haunted.  I don't know diddly squat about crawlies that I can't step on and squish.

June 19, 2012


Bob Rooks

Member

posts 1408

I had that same issue until I installed the new joystick loader valve, but it still does it ever so slightly, maybe 1 second. I think the problem actually lies with pump capacity. The OEM pump, I believe, is rated around 7 gpm @ 2,000 r/m. There is a higher capacity pump available, I think it is a CBN-16 or something like that. Ronald has the details for it. I'm thinking about upgrading my pump too to kind of smooth things out a little more but I've got so much on my plate right now I can barely think straight.

holeagain


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