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Y385T Engine died abruptly

UserPost

July 25, 2013


ironhorsemike

Lifetime Member

posts 22

Rotary tilled 100' row, then PTO off, while turning around, engine stopped with no warning, or misfiring, just abruptly but not seized.  Turned over when tried to restart, black smoke, some white smoke, no firing.

Tried an hour later, black smoke, fired a couple times but no start.

Next morning, cleaned screen in sediment bowl, pushed priming pump, with each stroke it squirted fuel from the return line back into the tank.

Several attempts to start produced some more black smoked and some random firing but did not start.

I would be grateful for some advice on what I might try or look for next.  Thanks.

July 25, 2013


RichWaugh

Lifetime Member Platinum Elite

posts 517

Just guessing Mike, but it sounds like maybe your injector pump jumped out of time.  I don't know if it uses a rectangular drive tang like a hydraulic pump or not, but if so, it may have gotten rounded off and slipped, screwing up the timing.

July 26, 2013


ironhorsemike

Lifetime Member

posts 22

Thanks for your input, Rich.  It sounds as good anything I suspected, although I have no experience with injector pumps.

What do you think are the chances of the drive tang being rounded off on a 2004 tractor with less than 400 hours?

I've always been a pretty good amateur mechanic / fixer of many things, but a pump / injector job has me a bit intimidated.  Time to call a professional, or??

 

Thanks for your help.

July 26, 2013


RichWaugh

Lifetime Member Platinum Elite

posts 517

Post edited 10:48 pm – July 26, 2013 by RichWaugh


I'm just guessing that is the cause – I could easily be wrong.  Did you pull the injectors and look at the spray pattern on each of them?  The fuel returning to the tank is from the lift pump, not the injector pump, I think.  You should eliminate all easier, cheaper causes first, before you mess with the IP.  Don't do heart surgery until you've ruled out indigestion, in other words,

 

Replacing the pump isn't difficult.  Getting a new one installed so it is timed correctly can be a bigger challenge, but many have done it successfully.  You have to carefully mark where the drive tang and gears are on the old one, don't remove anything you don't absolutely have to, and once it is re-installed you'll have to spill time it to be sure you have it right.  You can look up spill timing on Google or wherever and see how it is done – not tricky, you just have to do it methodically and you'll get it right.

That said, if there is a qualified Jinma mechanic local to you I might use him.  A mechanic who knows the tractor could probably do the R&R and timing in two hours or so, say $150-175 labor.  If the local mechanic isn't familiar with your brand of tractor/engine, then you might as well do it yourself and learn the drill, as it will take him twice as long and he won't have the books or brand-specific experience.  That's my take on it, at least.  It's your call. 

Before I did  anything at all, I'd call Tommy at Affordable Tractor and get his input since he knows these machines inside and out and will be your parts source anyway.

July 27, 2013


DavidPrivett

Lifetime Member Elite

posts 295

Have you checked your air cleaner it might not be getting enough air.

July 28, 2013


Bob Rooks

Member

posts 1401

I have never seen a fuel injection pump with a tang drive. All the ones I've seen have either a gear keyed and bolted to the cam, the gear is bolted and keyed to a tapered cam, or the gear is slip-fitted and keyed against a shoulder on the cam. (The cam being the input shaft of the fuel injection pump, which is in itself a camshaft.) Even the adjustable advance and auto-advance devices are similar.

July 30, 2013


ironhorsemike

Lifetime Member

posts 22

Thanks David and Bob for your input.  Yes, the air intake is one of the first things I checked and it's fine.

Rich, Tommy was away but I had a couple pleasant and informative chats with Harold at Affordable.  He's very familiar with that engine.

Here's where I am as of today:  pulled all three injectors, one at a time.  Swiveled the pipes around and all three are now out away from the engine.  When I crank the engine with the starter, all three puff out a little blast of finely divided mist, 1-2-3 in sequence.  From what I read and see on-line, this is how it should behave.  Of course, I cannot tell if they are timed right by just doing this.

Before I re-install the injectors into the block, can you think of anything else I might try while they are out?  Again, it died suddenly while I was backing up the other day, and now only coughs to life for a short moment when trying to start.

I do appreciate any guidance and insights anyone may have and realize how difficult it can be to diagnose problems this way or over the phone.  Thanks again.

July 30, 2013


SpringValley

Lifetime Member Expert

posts 244

Bob I think perhaps Rich was talking about he other end of the pump shaft.  Inside the pump.  In that case many of them have a tang drive such as item 99 in the attached.  The tang drive made it easy to field replace the pump.  I recall a dimple on the shaft and one inside the pump so a person would really have to screw up to get it 180 out. pump

July 30, 2013


SpringValley

Lifetime Member Expert

posts 244

ironhorsemike, make sure that you did not bump the compression release.  Some of them can get a little tweaked and they don't return all the way.  It's worth a look. 

July 31, 2013


Bob Rooks

Member

posts 1401

That's a new one on me. I've never seen a tang drive governor either (other end of cam).

embarassed readin

August 1, 2013


SpringValley

Lifetime Member Expert

posts 244

Bob wrote "That's a new one on me. I've never seen a tang drive governor either (other end of cam). embarassed

 

All this means is that I have worked on every piece of crap that was ever built . roflmao

August 1, 2013


RichWaugh

Lifetime Member Platinum Elite

posts 517

"All this means is that I have worked on every piece of crap that was ever built . "

 

Hey, that's what we call valuable experiential wisdom!  Or, in my case, a vast fund of generally useless information garnered through the perpetration of a long series of misadventures.roflmao

August 1, 2013


Bob Rooks

Member

posts 1401

Spring Valley wrote:

"All this means is that I have worked on every piece of crap that was ever built . roflmao"

Sometimes it feels exactly just like that. roflmao

 

Rich wrote:

"Hey, that's what we call valuable experiential wisdom!  Or, in my case, a vast fund of generally useless information garnered through the perpetration of a long series of misadventures.roflmao"

I call it getting old and tired. roflmao

August 2, 2013


ironhorsemike

Lifetime Member

posts 22

Thanks for all the entertaining banter, gentleman.  It's fun to read and I'm feeling better as I think I'm closing in on the cause.

Yesterday, every time I tried to start it, no matter what the throttle position:

30 sec. glow

after 5 seconds of cranking, it sputters to life.

Tach jumps up to about 1,000 for a moment, then dies.

So I start thinking…governor.  Talked to Tommy and Harold at Affordable and they steered me to the mushroom-shaped vent.  Removed: it's bone dry.  Put in 4oz. compressor oil.

Removed fuel / priming pump assembly.  Barely any oil on floor of housing, but distressingly, some chewed up little metal pieces.

I heading to the farm right now to remove the 4-screw access plate on the housing behind the pump.  Tommy told me to move a shaft in there back and forth as it might be stuck.  Keeping my fingers crossed.

Spring Valley: Thanks for the exploded drawing of the pump.  It looks a lot like mine, but not quite.  Can you post another one?  Not sure what to ask for, tho.

August 2, 2013


SpringValley

Lifetime Member Expert

posts 244

Mike, that picture is of a Roosa Master injection pump.   I don't know of anybody that has such a view of your pump.  If you have a problem with it about all you can do is get a new one.  The rebuild specs and internal parts are not available for the Chinese pumps that I have ever found.    Good luck.

August 2, 2013


Bob Rooks

Member

posts 1401

I thought that was a CAV/Lucas pump. Oh well. embarassed

What he most has is the in-line Bosch or Diesel KIKI type.

Well, that's not the pic I wanted.

August 2, 2013


Bob Rooks

Member

posts 1401

Post edited 2:45 pm – August 2, 2013 by Bob Rooks


Spring Valley is correct. Internal parts for these pumps are not available.

If you have metal pieces coming out of the drain hole, don't try to run the engine, those could be governor pieces and you would risk an overspeed condition. If on the other hand, the particles are more like grit or sand, flush the pump and governor thoroughly with diesel, blow out with compressed air and refill with fresh oil.

 

August 3, 2013


ironhorsemike

Lifetime Member

posts 22

The shaft in the left side (camshaft side), of the pump moved freely side to side, about one inch total.  It is connected to the governor in the right-side housing and controls how big a shot the injectors get.

When the shaft is far left, it's full delivery; far right is complete injector shut-off.

So it's far left with engine off or being started, but in my case, it pulls clear to the right when the engine catches and starts up.  Which immediately cuts off the fuel going to the injectors.

I held a screwdriver to prevent the shaft from moving all the way right, and the engine started up and kept running.  If I held it all the way to the left, I would likely cause it to overspeed.

The metal pieces in the bottom of the left housing (camshaft), were thin and mangled.  Tommy guessed they were shims used to calibrate the pump shots.

I'm about to remove the whole injector pump and see if I can fix whatever is wrong on the governor side. but my hopes of success are fading and have just about resigned myself to getting a new $500 pump.  Not a huge deal, and Tommy and Harold deserve some business for all the free phone time they've spent with me.  I just won't have the satisfaction of getting to the component-level root cause and fixing it myself.  frown

August 3, 2013


Bob Rooks

Member

posts 1401

Post edited 4:13 pm – August 3, 2013 by Bob Rooks


Don't even think you can fix it yourself unless you have a test bench to recalibrate it, and even then… Test benches start at around $20 large. And unless you have the proper training and understanding, don't even mess with the governor. Ego's have destroyed machines and killed people. Do you feel lucky?

There are no shims to "adjust pump shots". The scroll and helix orientation is determined by the rack position, and the barrel and plunger assembly is controlled by the depth of the barrel in relation to the cam lift, which in effect establishes the fuel delivery quantity and timing for a particular cylinder. You can only set this accurately on a test bench.

August 3, 2013


SpringValley

Lifetime Member Expert

posts 244

I completely agree with Bob.  I ran a flow bench some years ago at a place where I worked.  It takes training and knowledge of the pump you are working with.  Without any specs or known settings there is nothing even a trained person can do with it and this is no place to take a shot in the dark and hope you get it right.  It is not worth risking your engine or worse yet your body parts when it scatters. 


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