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February 20, 2011
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bg
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| Lifetime Member | posts 28 | |
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Hello All, Today, just after startup, I noticed alot of light colored smoke coming from the exhaust. Soon after the engine started to heat up. I checked and it was very low on coolant in the radiator. I also see tiny drops of liquid dripping from the exhaust elbow. I checked the engine oil dipstick and it appears to be normal. The hydraulics work fine. I'm guessing a blown head gasket, but what else should I look for ? Any suggestions appreciated. Also I have a 2005 JM 284 YangDong Y385T engine. BG
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February 20, 2011
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RichWaugh
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| Lifetime Member Elite | posts 280 | |
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Often with a blown head gasket you will see either oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil sump. I'd start by checking for those – look in the top of the radiator for oil floating on the coolant and also slowly remove the drain plug from the oil sump and see if water comes out first. Being heavier than oil the water will settle to the bottom of the oil sump. Depending on where the drain plug is, it might help to park the tractor on a slight grade so the drain plug is the very lowest point to concentrate any water that might be present.
You said the engine began to heat up – do you men it began to *overheat*? The droplets of water on the exhaust could just be condensation from the exhaust. Was it actually water or was it coolant? Makes a difference.
How long had the tractor sat idle befor this hapened? Was it outdoors where it might have gotten rainwater down the exhaust? Do you have, or have access to, a diesel compression tester? Good way to diagnose a blown head gasket. Was the head re-torqued and the valve lash set at 100 hours? If not, you could try re-torquing it now.
Some things to consider.
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February 20, 2011
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Bob Rooks
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| Lifetime Member Platinum Elite | posts 868 | |
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Light colored exhaust at start up in cold ambient temps can be normal – low combustion temps = unburned fuel = white smoke. This could last for up to a minute at idle speed. You would also get, as Rich mentioned, condensation because water is a by-product of low temp. incomplete combustion. If there is a head gasket failure to the combustion chamber you will also notice bubbles and/or surging and an oil slick in the coolant flow in the radiator top tank. If the tractor was parked outside I can only assume that you had a can over the exhaust pipe.
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February 20, 2011
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bg
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| Lifetime Member | posts 28 | |
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I cracked the drain plug on the oil sump and sure enough there was coolant there. So I assume the head needs to be removed ? I have never torqued the head bolts or adjusted the valve leash. That follows my credo , If it aint broke dont ever attempt to fix it !! However I may pay a price for that now. I have removed the valve cover and will remove the rocker assembly , exhaust manifold and anything else that gets in the way. Is it fairly normal for a head gasket to fail? I have not really stressed this engine .No rainwater has ever gone down the exhaust, the tractor is always under the shed. Oil and coolant has always been maintained properly. Back in my younger days I played around with gas engines, mostly six bangers, and the only time I saw a head gasket fail was due to overheating and stress on the engine. Not the case with my JM. Anyway, when I pull the head what other signs of damage should I look for? Or should I just retorque the head, adjust the valves and try to run it? I will say it started missing or not firing on one of the injectors the last time I started it. Lots of light colored smoke too. Thanks BG
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February 20, 2011
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Tinbender
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| Lifetime Member Elite | posts 385 | |
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Post edited 9:22 pm – February 20, 2011 by Tinbender
Once the gasket is leaking torquing is not an option. It is recommended these be re-torqued at 50 hrs. Look for signs of where the gasket failed, check for cracks in the block and head, most likely the gasket simply failed. I can't remember for sure but I believe I checked the head torque before starting mine for the first time since nothing else on these seem to be torqued or adjusted correctly at the factory. Now that they have a brand new factory maybe they spent a few bucks on torque wrenches
P.S. Take lots of pictures to help things go back together smoothly
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February 21, 2011
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bg
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| Lifetime Member | posts 28 | |
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I have the head off and found that it was not torqued properly. All but one bolt was over torqued. I don't know how much over torqued but it was all I could do to break them loose with an 18" bar. The one rear bolt was much more loose and that is where I found the problem. There was coolant puddled in the last cylinder. I have looked the head and block over and the gasket is not torn or damaged in any way that i can see. I can't see anything that needs fixed. Does anyone have an opinion on this? Should I have the head checked in a shop? The tractor had been running fine until it suddenly started smoking yesterday. Anyone have this experience ? Thanks, BG
PS Spellchecker works fine !!!
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February 21, 2011
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Tinbender
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| Lifetime Member Elite | posts 385 | |
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I suspect that bolt was loose from day one. If you look closley at the block, head, and either side of the gasket around that bolt area you should see signs of a trail of coolant going from a water jacket into the cylinder. Maybe faint, but there somewhere. I would put the gasket back down, throw the head back on and install all the bolts around that cylinder and re torque them just to be satisfied that the one bolt will torque down, and nothing is wrong with the threads in the block. Dont try to reuse the gasket, this is not a "Spray copper paint on it and put it back together" Briggs and Stratton If it were me knowing what I've seen on mine, I would assume it was sloppy assembly at the factory, get a new gasket set and re-assemble, adjust the valves, and see what happens.
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February 21, 2011
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Bob Rooks
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| Lifetime Member Platinum Elite | posts 868 | |
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Tinbender wrote:
"Spray copper paint on it and put it back together"
WHAT??? You're giving me a heart attack!!!
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February 21, 2011
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Tinbender
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| Lifetime Member Elite | posts 385 | |
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Post edited 5:15 pm – February 21, 2011 by Tinbender
Bob, I used to do that with minibike engines long, long ago. Heck, the small engine parts store sold the Permatex Copper Gasket Spray just for this purpose We ran racing pistons with thin rings, trick clutches, all that good stuff.
Didn't have to worry about coolant leaks!
I built and fixed minibikes for all the kids in the neighborhood when I was around 8 years old.
You should have seen the looks on the dads faces when the saw the "mechanic" their kids brought them to
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February 21, 2011
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RichWaugh
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| Lifetime Member Elite | posts 280 | |
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Post edited 5:41 pm – February 21, 2011 by RichWaugh
Tinbender gave you good advice.
It is no surprise that the head bolts were harder to take out than you expected – this does not meant they were over-torqued on assembly, though. When bolts are properly torqued down and then stay that way for a while they are usually much harder to break loose. Release torque has nothing to do with initial torque in other words.
Diesels have a high compression ratio so they are more prone to blow head gaskets than lower compression engines are. I would have the head checked for flatness before re-installing it. Unless it was overheated, the head should still be flat, providied that it left the factory flat – that's why I would check it. Any automotive machine shop can check it for you in a few minutes.
Get all the coolant out of that cylinder right away and put some oil in there to prevent rust or corrosion. A wet/dry shop vac is a good tool for this, but don't use compressed air as it can blow the coolant past the rings.
Examine all the head bolts carefully and check all the bolt holes for proper depth and clearance. Blow them out with compressed air and probe with a small pick if necessary. Clean the block deck and the head face absolutely clean and free of any contaminants and re-assemble with a new head gasket. Do not use gasket sealer of any type with these head gaskets.
Check with Ronald at Ranch Hand Supply or Tommy at Affordable Tractor Sales for the proper torque setting for the head bolts – the manuals are frequently wrong on this topic and these guys rebuild lots of engines and know what is right.
Once you have it running again, make sure you re-torque the head bolts and re-set the valve lash at 50 hours of run time. You now know why this is important. :-)
Rich
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February 21, 2011
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bg
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| Lifetime Member | posts 28 | |
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Thanks for the replies everyone. I will take your advice , I've ordered a new gasket, decided against the copper paint, although I did enjoy the suggestion. Cleaned up the block and head thoroughly. I saw a link on Johnstractor where they recommend torque to 95- 110 ft lbs. I've seen various valve settings, most seem to be around 012 for both intake and exhaust. I now this has been hashed over many times but has anyone actually comparison tested different settings on the Y385T ? Just curious… BG
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February 21, 2011
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RichWaugh
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| Lifetime Member Elite | posts 280 | |
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That torque setting seems lower than I remember Ronald and Tommy suggesting – you might want to check with them. They would also be the source 'd recommend for the valve lash settings. My enngine is a TY395 so I can't advise you about yours.
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February 22, 2011
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Affordable
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| Supporting Dealer | posts 195 | |
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Post edited 8:36 pm – February 22, 2011 by Affordable
I have the torque specs at the office as well as the valve settings,they are different on intake and exhaust and are supposed to be done on a cold engine
Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales
"Your Jinma Parts Superstore"
http://www.affordabletractorsalesco.com
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February 28, 2011
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bg
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| Lifetime Member | posts 28 | |
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Just finished replacing the head gasket. Tricky part was finding TDC to do the valve adjustment. Had to remove the radiator to see the crank pully. Lots of good documentation on the other site. My manual was wrong. Had an AW SH@# moment when lots of smoke showed up when I started the engine for the first time. It took several minutes to burn all the residual coolant out . Engine runs great, better than ever. NO Leaks, No drips, No errors!! Thanks for the replies. Lesson Learned…. Do the damn maintenance!!!! BG
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February 28, 2011
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RichWaugh
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| Lifetime Member Elite | posts 280 | |
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Good news, BG! Glad to hear you got it back together and all is well at last.
What did you end up using for the head bolt torque setting? What valve lash settings? Just curious. The manuals are not always right on the Chinese tractors, that's why I always tell people to check with Tommy or Ronald if they aren't absolutely sure the manual is right.
Rich
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February 28, 2011
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bg
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| Lifetime Member | posts 28 | |
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Rich, I set the head bolt torque to 100 / 105 the intake valves to .014 , the exhaust to .016. I garnered this from several different posts. Before adjusting only 2 valves were accurately set , # 1 exhaust valve was way off! In the past 6 months I have replaced a water pump , replaced head gasket and rebuilt a loader hydraulic cylinder. Its time for some seat time! Thanks for all your good advice , both the cylinder and head. BG
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